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Post by Bear on Jan 2, 2006 17:13:08 GMT -5
Lets think about this. After watching Episode 3 again it really occured to me that Anakin was a REALLY bad man. He murdered a bunch of kids, directly killed several Jedi, and because of him thousands across the galaxy died and millions more were held hostage under a iron fist regiem.
So at the end of Jedi he picks up the Emporer and tosses him down a hole. Big deal I say!
The Emporer would have died in the Death Star explosion anyways. So he saved his son. I think we could all say that Saddam would have saved his sons given the opportunity.
What do you guys think?
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Post by Jo'Roq on Jan 3, 2006 0:50:25 GMT -5
Redemption was actually the entire purpose for Anakin's life. He was the Chosen One "to bring balance to the Force," and here is my interpretation of that: Think back to all the Jedi training we've seen in the movies. The philosophy basically came down to "listen to your feelings to find the right way." Yet when it came to the darker emotions (anger, fear, aggression, etc), students were warned to push them away and ignore them. Additionally, Episode 2 showed that the Jedi also pushed away love, believing that a personal interest in a single person would interfere with the Jedi's duty to the entire galaxy ("the good of the many ...."). By pushing away, squashing, and/or ignoring these feelings, the Jedi brought themselves to the point of losing their connection to the Force (through refusing to acknowledge all of its emotional aspects) - which thus allowed a Dark Lord of the Sith to literally be in their midst undetected. When Anakin fell to the Dark Side, he set into motion the balancing of the Force. The Jedi were virtually eradicated, leaving only Obi-Wan and Yoda left of the old Jedi tradition. When Luke began his training, Obi-Wan and Yoda had to improvise, abbreviate, and prioritize his learning - they had lost many years that they once would have had if not for the destruction of the Jedi Order, and time was running out for their chance at vengeance. Thus while Luke was given some basic philosophical education, he was primarily trained for battle - the intent being for Luke (or Leia if he failed) to destroy both Darth Vader and Palpatine so that the Jedi Order could be rebuilt without the threat of the Sith. Yet Luke ended up traveling a different path. He alone held the belief that the good Anakin Skywalker still existed within Darth Vader, and could be brought back. Free of the philosophies that shackled and limited the Jedi of the Old Republic, Luke was actually more open to the Force than either Obi-Wan or Yoda and so was able to achieve what they and Palpatine all believed was impossible - the redemption of a fallen Jedi. During the duel on the second Death Star, Luke initially tried to hold to what he had been taught, and so fought merely defensively in a losing battle. Yet Luke still held on to his love for both his unknown father and just-discovered sister as his emotional anchor, which went against all of the teachings of the Jedi Order. Because that love had become Luke's purpose for fighting this last battle, even when he began to succumb to the Dark Side he did not become lost in it. He was able to recognize that loss of control (symbolically through the shared loss of a hand with Darth Vader) and conquer it, accepting the fact that the dark emotions were as much a part of life as the "good" emotions while refusing to allow them to control him. In that moment Anakin learned that he was not wrong to have loved and acted on that love, and so the despair, anger, and frustration that had driven him for so long lifted - leaving Anakin Skywalker free once more to chose his own destiny rather than have it chosen for him (by either side). Anakin's redemption was not about a forgiveness of his actions, but about the fulfilling of the prophecy. Through both his own actions at the end, and through his son, Anakin had fulfilled his role as the Chosen One - with all of the Old Republic Jedi and the Sith gone, Luke (with his new understanding of the Force) would alone be the one to guide the rebirth of the Jedi Order. **** A bit long-winded, yes, but I have put a good bit of thought into that. "What could have been" cannot be known. The Rebels were losing on all fronts until Anakin threw Palpatine to die in the reactor core. The instant balance was restored to the Force, the 20-year long dominance of the Dark Side was broken and its influence on the galaxy removed. I would argue that had Anakin not thrown Palpatine into the reactor core, the battle on Endor would have been lost, and so the shield would never have come down in time for the Rebel starfighters to make the dramatic run on the core. But hey, this is all hypothetical and speculative anyway. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by Alter_Ego on Jan 6, 2006 14:43:35 GMT -5
And I have to live with the man who spent the time to come up with that last theory. Your pity is appreciated! (Just kidding sweety! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) )
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Post by Jo'Roq on Jan 6, 2006 19:50:35 GMT -5
And I have to live with the man who spent the time to come up with that last theory. Your pity is appreciated! (Just kidding sweety! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ) You don't know the power of the geek mind. I MUST obey my impulses .... ;D
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Post by Bear on Jan 6, 2006 20:19:59 GMT -5
Redemption was actually the entire purpose for Anakin's life. He was the Chosen One "to bring balance to the Force," and here is my interpretation of that: Think back to all the Jedi training we've seen in the movies. The philosophy basically came down to "listen to your feelings to find the right way." Yet when it came to the darker emotions (anger, fear, aggression, etc), students were warned to push them away and ignore them. Additionally, Episode 2 showed that the Jedi also pushed away love, believing that a personal interest in a single person would interfere with the Jedi's duty to the entire galaxy ("the good of the many ...."). By pushing away, squashing, and/or ignoring these feelings, the Jedi brought themselves to the point of losing their connection to the Force (through refusing to acknowledge all of its emotional aspects) - which thus allowed a Dark Lord of the Sith to literally be in their midst undetected. When Anakin fell to the Dark Side, he set into motion the balancing of the Force. The Jedi were virtually eradicated, leaving only Obi-Wan and Yoda left of the old Jedi tradition. When Luke began his training, Obi-Wan and Yoda had to improvise, abbreviate, and prioritize his learning - they had lost many years that they once would have had if not for the destruction of the Jedi Order, and time was running out for their chance at vengeance. Thus while Luke was given some basic philosophical education, he was primarily trained for battle - the intent being for Luke (or Leia if he failed) to destroy both Darth Vader and Palpatine so that the Jedi Order could be rebuilt without the threat of the Sith. Yet Luke ended up traveling a different path. He alone held the belief that the good Anakin Skywalker still existed within Darth Vader, and could be brought back. Free of the philosophies that shackled and limited the Jedi of the Old Republic, Luke was actually more open to the Force than either Obi-Wan or Yoda and so was able to achieve what they and Palpatine all believed was impossible - the redemption of a fallen Jedi. During the duel on the second Death Star, Luke initially tried to hold to what he had been taught, and so fought merely defensively in a losing battle. Yet Luke still held on to his love for both his unknown father and just-discovered sister as his emotional anchor, which went against all of the teachings of the Jedi Order. Because that love had become Luke's purpose for fighting this last battle, even when he began to succumb to the Dark Side he did not become lost in it. He was able to recognize that loss of control (symbolically through the shared loss of a hand with Darth Vader) and conquer it, accepting the fact that the dark emotions were as much a part of life as the "good" emotions while refusing to allow them to control him. In that moment Anakin learned that he was not wrong to have loved and acted on that love, and so the despair, anger, and frustration that had driven him for so long lifted - leaving Anakin Skywalker free once more to chose his own destiny rather than have it chosen for him (by either side). Anakin's redemption was not about a forgiveness of his actions, but about the fulfilling of the prophecy. Through both his own actions at the end, and through his son, Anakin had fulfilled his role as the Chosen One - with all of the Old Republic Jedi and the Sith gone, Luke (with his new understanding of the Force) would alone be the one to guide the rebirth of the Jedi Order. **** A bit long-winded, yes, but I have put a good bit of thought into that. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......what?-who?.....What was that again? The Ewoks would have succeeded because they are not bound to the rules of the force.
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Post by CkRtech on Jan 6, 2006 21:17:40 GMT -5
What? That's it? I'm still waiting on your intelligent follow-up to what Jo'Roq said, Bear. Where is it?
I agree with what Jo' said. I also think that if you drew a parallel to today & included a "trial" over the matter, you could very well say that Anakin could pull the insanity plea - although he seemed to turn himself around in the end (only to lose his life.)
I don't think that Anakin was truly acting of his own will throughout his turn to the dark side and his stint as Darth Vader. I think his mind was clouded and manipulated into almost nothing. You could see how drained he was (almost zombie-like) after he attacked Mace Windu. (See Sith Radio show for explanation on this - although I believe it is currently offline.)
Back to my point - I do not believe that Anakin/Darth really ever had an agenda of his own & that he was completely controlled by the Emperor. You could make an argument that he had his own plans when he tried to sway Luke to the Dark side with the "family plan" just after Luke lost his hand. However, I believe he was trying to use the line to his advantage after dropping the "I am your father" line on Luke.
It is interesting that we as viewers see the inside track to how Anakin turned to the dark side. I think had we only seen/heard what happened from inside the world of Star Wars, then Anakin/Darth would be evil incarnate. However knowing what we know, I can't help pity Anakin and continue to see the Emperor as the true evil at work.
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Post by Bear on Jan 9, 2006 19:54:53 GMT -5
Anakin knew what Palpatine was making him do was wrong though. He said it many times trough out episode 3. He was drawn to the Darkside because of what it could do for him. Not only did he want to prevent Padme's death but also at the end wanted to take control eventually from the Emperor. He sold his soul for greed and power. Redemption is not a prophecy or fate. Redemption is recognizing that your past actions created pain or sorrow and that it is time to correct those mistakes. You might say that Vader is the Tucci Williams of the Star Wars universe. He never admitted his crimes, but everyone thinks he is some peace making second coming. I am not sure if the Emperor was thrown down the shaft before or after the victory on the Endor moon, I haven't taken the time to check. I do know from the victory at the first Death Star it doesn't take balance in the Force to achieve it. Who is to say that there was balance to the force after the demise of the Emperor. We are never really told, only led to believe. The CK, is that the kind of rebuttal you were looking for
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Post by Wheeljack35 on Jan 10, 2006 15:37:49 GMT -5
I wonder how Luke would of responded to seeing his father killing the younglings
Luke only knew what he had heard and what he had seen on the Death Star after Obi Wan was killed.Unless Yoda mentioned some thing....nah he hid the fact that Vader was his father till the end so why tell him anything more
I think in Lukes mind he forgave Anakin
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