|
Post by CkRtech on Jun 3, 2004 17:45:25 GMT -5
thats what she would want them to think. In reality she's got plans in the background running that most of them probably wouldn't have a clue about. part of her charm comes from making people think that she's simple minded when she's anything but. I don't quite understand this. Perhaps you could provide more explanation. I believe she is still simple-minded. Starcrossed (keeping with cartoon continuity here) showed that she was behind something (at least initially) - but she still had to make decisions in the end. She had to make a choice for one side and suffer her disconnection from the other one. She helped the league (to show her return true to form - with the J.L. pride that she and the others share) Other than that, she hasn't really had too many feature episodes. Are you tying comic stories into this? (Outside of the JL adventures line which is somewhat of a parallel to the animated series (different stories). From what I have seen, they haven't really introduced too much evidence that her character is really deep. And I still say there needs to be a Hawkgirl series. Perhaps bring GL or Hawkman into it just for extra villians and what not. There is absolutely no way that there could possibly be a Hawkgirl series. That is kinda like asking for a Zatanna series or a Firestorm series. While they (and Hawkgirl) can be fun characters, they do not have the depth, development, and fan-following to carry a series. As a matter of fact, she would probably rank last in a list of seperate cartoon series out of the JL from Seasons 1 and 2. Order would most likely be: 1: Batman 2: Superman 3: Wonder Woman 4: Green Lantern (...ranking fourth much easier if it were Hal Jordan most likely) 5: Flash 6: Martian Manhunter (keystone to JL - interesting background) 7: Hawkgirl
|
|
|
Post by silverbolt on Jun 3, 2004 20:49:12 GMT -5
Please throwing out Batman and possibly Superman, Hawkgirl is easily the most developed character in the series. The depth is there but its subtile at times definately there was more for her then WW who for most of the series was Superman in drag or very cardboardish. If there was a WW series I would avoid that thing like the plague, I just don't think that she brings anything different to the table. A boring one dimensional self rightous character that believes herself to be better then anyone else and who only has to follow what rules that she deems fit.
Hawkgirl was more vital to most of the episodes then WW as well.
If i were to rank the league it would be like this
Batman--Already had a series, but you can never have enough bats.
Hawkgirl--I don't think she could do it on her own, she needs someone to feed off of and someone that has a little better following. Say GL, give him the show with her as a sidekick in the title and what not, but in reality make it more her show then his.
GL for the reasons above, though Hal Jordan would be the only way I could see him as a stand alone.
Superman--Did nothing for me, I think he's just to powerful to make a show interesting. Either the bad guys have Kyptonite or some other way to drain his powers, or they use Supes brawn before brains approach against him.
MM--Under used in JL, but I could see him having his own series if it was done right.
WW--Superman in drag. I wouldn't watch it if they put it out because her character pretty much either ticks me off or puts me to sleep. Maid of Honor and Paradise Lost rank 2 and 3 as my least favorite JL episodes. I just don't think she can carry a episode on her own, and since thats the case I don't see a series happening. Just because she couldn't take that sidekick role.
Flash--Great in small doses, perfect sidekick character to someone like GL or Batman even. Theres a reason he only had really one episode to be the main player in in JL. Eclipse was just horrible.
I would also put Aquaman ahead of everyone but Hawkgirl and Batman. In only two episodes he just showed himself to be a great character. Terror Beyond was great because of him and Hawkgirl, I would probalby rate that one at Starcrossed levels if not even better, and Enemy Below was probably the only non-Hawkgirl episode that I actually liked.
All Superheros start off with no backgrounds or fan bases. If they can do a series on someone like Static Shock, then they can do one on anyone.
The main factor is do people enjoy the character and can they carry a episode.
Of course I also believe that DC or WB should keep JL on the air as long as its ratings allow rotating the characters just to see who the public likes and dislikes. Thats the easiest way to find out who they should do a movie or seperate toon on next.
|
|
|
Post by StrykerX2K on Jun 3, 2004 20:59:46 GMT -5
If fanboys get confused with Hawkman getting thrown in the mix, then they are not true fanboys...real Fanboys know the encompassing history of the 2 not just this segment of the HG story...right now Hawkgirl (outside of JL: TAS) is actually Kendra and not Shayera Hall ...They almost place this in a different continuity, just for that fact.
Hawkman would be the perfect addition, as he was an anchor member, as well was Aquaman, but for the purpose of this discussion...it would be great to see him come to Earth, claim his beloved and redeem Thanagar, by his actions. If I am not mistaken in current continuity...Thanagar is no more...
Now for GL....I have never liked John Stewart as GL....why? because he is a boring character. Kyle Raynor, would have been a better choice for GL...Hal Jordan wold have been great, also...but John Stewart, was somewhat random IMO. Raynor has a more diverse background and has crossed lots of paths with many of the heros in current continuity...not to mention a love affair with Jade...who would have been a great guest star on GL....We still know relatively nothing about John Stewart and going to 30 minute eps not being dependent upon each other, we are probably not going to get it in the Season 3 unlimited series......He is just a really big bore as far as character depth goes....
I know we won't see Hawkman this season, but hopefully they will bring him in in Season 4. It would be a welcomed addition to the line up.
|
|
|
Post by silverbolt on Jun 3, 2004 21:06:42 GMT -5
I wouldn't mind seeing Hawkman, but really with the way they did Starcrossed I think it would have to be sloppily done to explain his relationship with HG and would probably take more time then what they'd be willing to spend to do it right.
Would Hawkman been some guy that was in love with HG before she was promised to Kar or however you spell his name? And if so, then how would they explain what she had with Stewart on top of that.
I would like to see him redeem his people and Hawkgirl, but I believe that job falls solely to her. I don't think she's going to get a Thanagarian knight in shiney armor for that.
And yeah Stewart was boring but at least with Hawkgirl involved he was less boring then before. Season 2 Stewart was alot better then Season 1. He even did more then just bolts and shields with the ring.
|
|
|
Post by StrykerX2K on Jun 3, 2004 21:06:55 GMT -5
On the Wonder Woman front, she actually could carry a show...considering she did it in live action for a period of time....without any issues. You are right, though she plays second fiddle to none. If they did a Wonder Woman toon, they would not set it like JL....I think they would bring more of the "gods" theme into it. Special guests only when the storyline warranted. She would easily be able to carry her own series by herself...of all the JL characters on the show, the only one who doesn't have a current stand alone comic is HAwkgirl....not that I wouldn't want to see one...but because she really can't carry a series by herself...they throw her in Hawkman and JSA....she is great in those titles, especially when they focus on her relationship with Hawkman...she is still fighting the destiny of them being together, as they have been throughout time....but again..this is Kendra and not Shayera...I think Shayera is now Hawkwoman....
|
|
|
Post by StrykerX2K on Jun 3, 2004 21:09:24 GMT -5
True...John Stewart definitely got better in Season 2 and I agree with you on the storyline thing...but they could say ...with the age taht she looks...that they were involved before Kar and she bacme involved with him and then Hawkman was found...it's such a stretch that it could only work in comics.... ;D
|
|
|
Post by silverbolt on Jun 3, 2004 21:22:14 GMT -5
I'm going strickly by JL, this is most likely what the kids have seen, and that is generally what drives future series. The kids, not the fanboys. While I would love to see a Hawkgirl series, anything to keep her on the air for another two or three years, I doubt that any female superhero series would be done. Judging by how the female characters figures are marketed.
However just with JL alone, Hawkgirl is by far the superior character of the two. Villians could easily be done up for her. Fanboys might not like it, because it would probably go against past/present history and what not, but the JL character of Hawkgirl is definately strong and interesting enough to carry a show, she already carries most of the episodes that she's in.
And knowing none of the JL Thanagarian culture other then what has been presented, I'm guessing that they're promised to another at a very young age. Perhaps she met Hawkman in a battle or something and they became friends, but couldn't become more even though they had a definate connection, and perhaps when Kar comes back home with the news of his failure and demotion, Hawkman acts on and comes to Hawkgirl, but the person that he was promised to would have to either be dead or banished as well. Lost of ifs. I just don't think that if Hawkgirl loved someone though, truely loved them she would allow herself to get involved with anyone other then them. I think she's got high standards of conduct.
|
|
|
Post by StrykerX2K on Jun 3, 2004 21:38:33 GMT -5
I don't think selling out your friends should be considered high standards of conduct...on orders or not....that is not conduct befitting her character. I actually like that they threw that in though, because it added that much more depth to her character and showed her compassionate side...which in most eps you don't see....I agree I don't think we will ever see a female stand alone series...because everyone in marketing the female charactes think there is no market...I think that is somewhat antiquated.
I see what you are saying about cartoons having a kid following, but if you read the comics and are in general a fan of any of the characters involved in the TAS story...their following automatically watches the show....That is why WW would have a leg up on her own series...she has a huge following, outside of JL; TAS...
|
|
|
Post by silverbolt on Jun 3, 2004 21:39:30 GMT -5
As for season three, I really wish they would have went with a death of Superman story line for the season. They could have done so much with that instead of turning it into a Savage episode. I liked Vandal Savage in it, but that episode should have been more with how the league dealt with the loss instead of getting Superman back.
7 episodes without Superman anywhere and use them to develop the other members of the league.
3 to kill Supes, 3 to bring him back.
13 one hour episodes.
I think that would have worked lots better then JLU. You could have still brought in the extras but you would have had a story line and character development, which is what made JL work in the first place.
The Batman/Superman TAS approach I just don't see working for JL. Single heros can be developed like that, not large groups.
|
|
|
Post by Jo'Roq on Jun 3, 2004 21:44:11 GMT -5
I don't think there's any way Hawkgirl could pull off her own show, for these reasons:
1. Outside JL, she's virtually unknown. Yes, the comics crowd knows her, but she isn't the pop culture icon Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are.
2. There are no popular pre-set villains or environments to draw in a viewing audience. Superman has Luthor and Supergirl; Batman has the Bat-Family, Joker, Penquin, and so on; Wonder Woman has the Amazons to draw on for supporting characters and semi-familiar motifs. Hawkgirl is just an alien with wings, a mace, and a temper - there's no general appeal in that.
Static Shock works because it started as a separate show to make a ghetto black boy (no offense intended to anyone who reads this) a superhero. They brought in the other DC and Batman Beyond characters at first to boost ratings, and now to keep giving it a little boost and extra appeal while building Static's characters.
Superman and Batman have already had solo shows, which are what led to JL and Teen Titans now, but those solo shows were done to start with because of pop culture. The fan base is pre-built, since the names will draw in a ton of viewers at the beginning who are just curious about these newest incarnations. There are the nostalgic fans who remember George Reeves and Adam West, and more recently Christopher Reeves and Michael Keaton, not to mention the old Superfriends show. Hawkgirl just doesn't have that history or base.
|
|
|
Post by StrykerX2K on Jun 3, 2004 21:44:46 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see how JLU will play out...they may need to go back to the old format...this will be more like the Superfriends...
|
|
|
Post by CkRtech on Jun 3, 2004 21:45:57 GMT -5
Bolt - while it isn't impossible that Hawkgirl could have a series, it is extremely improbable.
Look at it from this perspective: How many Superman Fans are there? How many Batman? Wonder Woman? GL?
...and finally you get to Hawkgirl.
So there is the potential audience. Now what else? Marketing. How much Superman merchandise is already out there and selling? Batman? Wonder Woman? I don't see many Hawkgirl snowglobes, bookends, etc. What about replicas? No Mace. No wings...or mask. I do see Wonder Woman Tiaras, Green Lanterns, Batman utility belts, etc...Does Hawkgirl have her own comic series? What about movie? Live action TV Show?
Superman has had everything. Wonder Woman has been in different variations of cartoons, Live action, etc. Batman has made the tour as well.
Also - Look at Justice League over the years. Hawkgirl was only randomly added to this bunch. She hasn't been an ongoing member.
Also - Go up to anyone on the street and ask them who Superman is. Who Batman is....who Wonder Woman is. Now try Hawkgirl.
There are all of the characters in the current JL cartoon to choose from, and while I am sure kids like Hawkgirl - who are they going to recognize more? Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc were around before this show started, afterall.
Starcrossed was her main feature episode so how was she developed more? Even if she were - does it really justify a potential seperate series considering all the items I mentioned above?
------
Other things:
Dunno how JLU will be besides what we have read. Superfriends had tons of characters & they were all pretty memorable.
Heck! Look at Transformers! SOOO many characters & while there were main ones, people had favorite "niche" characters as well.
Obviously, character development would slow a bit in that case....but I would say that this core group has been the main one I have been interested in. Although they are doing the 30 minute plot route, really good writing can help develop individual characters well. If the writers continue to churn out stuff like Starcrossed, I believe they can take new characters and make them just as likeable & loveable as the current cast that we know.
|
|
|
Post by CkRtech on Jun 3, 2004 21:48:12 GMT -5
<trumpets> Bum buh bah bah bahhh bup bup bup baaaaaaaaaa! (background lick: ta ta ta taaaaa!) Great! Now the music is stuck in my head!
|
|
|
Post by silverbolt on Jun 3, 2004 21:51:09 GMT -5
I don't think selling out your friends should be considered high standards of conduct...on orders or not....that is not conduct befitting her character. I actually like that they threw that in though, because it added that much more depth to her character and showed her compassionate side...which in most eps you don't see....I agree I don't think we will ever see a female stand alone series...because everyone in marketing the female charactes think there is no market...I think that is somewhat antiquated. I see what you are saying about cartoons having a kid following, but if you read the comics and are in general a fan of any of the characters involved in the TAS story...their following automatically watches the show....That is why WW would have a leg up on her own series...she has a huge following, outside of JL; TAS... Theres a problem with that though Styker, she had to betray one set of friends. Either her old or her new. I believe that she did her job throughly, but kept the truely vital information secret to protect her friends, to not complete the mission would be to betray her people. And I'm sorry I can't see anyone here not making the same choice she did at first. Lets just say your immediate family for some reason decides they have to have the information about everyone here, what they're weaknesses are and what not, just in case we get out of line while their trying to do something for us. You'd probably provide that information out of trust to them thinking that while its a very odd request no harm would come from it. She trusted her people to do what was right, and when things started to go wrong she did what she could do to stay out of prision to find out what was really going on. She obviously didn't give them all of the information that she had on the league Also how do you know that the Thanagarians would have allowed the league to even help with the project without the knowledge she provided. Lots of variables here. She really didn't give them anything that they couldn't get from supervillians and apparently the knowledge is pretty easy to find since most have it. If she truely betrayed them it would have been with who they really were and where they really lived. She really was put into a no win situation, especially when crap hit the fan. In the end she chose her friends and their adopted planet over her own people and theirs. I think thats a choice that a few of the league wouldn't have made. And yeah Hawkgirl has a compassionate side that doesn't show up to often in the series. But its there and its what makes her a believable and likeable character.
|
|
|
Post by Jo'Roq on Jun 3, 2004 21:51:21 GMT -5
3 to kill Supes, 3 to bring him back. Not going to happen again. They had a few "death" episodes in the 90s Superman series that always ended up with Superman having to come up with an excuse or fake a miraculous survival for the sudden reappearance of himself or Clark Kent. The censors are not going to let things go further than that just yet for a main character. Superman TAS has also already brought in the guy who killed Supes in the comics (the name escapes me at the moment ) and defeated him. Not even Darkseid was allowed to come close to an actual death moment.
|
|
|
Post by silverbolt on Jun 3, 2004 22:02:59 GMT -5
Sigh but ALL heros started from nothing. Just because some character doesn't have all that now doesn't mean that they can't be given it. This isn't like me saying I should be the next Owner of the Reds because I'd be willing to spend my billions to keep a winner in the city.
This is a animated character, if properly marketed, the Hawk wings, cowl, mace figures and what not with a well written show I believe that Hawkgirl could hold her own. The JL character is one that was developed well, I consider Terror Beyond to be a Hawkgirl episode as well as her playing sidekick roles in various others where she stole the screen each time she was on it. Using that as a spring board it could work.
Yes I know that you can't ask common people who Hawkgirl is and get a answer. But there was a time that alot of people didn't know the Bat or Supes either. Just because some character doesn't have street cred isn't the reason to not do something.
Do I think that it would happen, of course not because there isn't anyone that would probalby take the chance on what was up till JL a sidekick character in a full time leading role, but if someone did and treated it right I believe that it would work alot better then a WW series.
Create her some villians have steady guest stars or give her a sidekick like GL to work with yeah I think it would be a good series. Better then 90% of the crap their putting on there right now.
|
|
|
Post by StrykerX2K on Jun 3, 2004 22:03:08 GMT -5
Good points...but I would like to think that if approached with that situation...I would have to question the reason for the request. I have a stong sense of loyalty to friends not factions...so I would be less likely to disseminate information about friends than gactions, be it my own peopel or what have you....I have been in the situation where two sets of friends who don't get along want ot know secrets about the other and I am a neutral party...again an ethics thing for me. She was in a no win situation...but all along, she knew she was there for that reason and befriended them and then , if even only as a symbol, destroyed their trust....sometimes you find yourself in these situations and they become defining moments good or bad it was a defining moment for her. she somewhat redeemed herself...but what else can you expect in that situation...
|
|
|
Post by silverbolt on Jun 3, 2004 22:05:26 GMT -5
And Ckr this is from my Hawkgirl (I can't get her to post in this topic for anything, because with what she wants to say you guys would probalby ban her for it...she's a fiesty girl with a quick temper and defends HG more then I even do)
oh and I demand he lose the hawkgirl sig ..lol traitors do not get hawk love ..lol
|
|
|
Post by silverbolt on Jun 3, 2004 22:09:26 GMT -5
Good points...but I would like to think that if approached with that situation...I would have to question the reason for the request. I have a stong sense of loyalty to friends not factions...so I would be less likely to disseminate information about friends than gactions, be it my own peopel or what have you....I have been in the situation where two sets of friends who don't get along want ot know secrets about the other and I am a neutral party...again an ethics thing for me. She was in a no win situation...but all along, she knew she was there for that reason and befriended them and then , if even only as a symbol, destroyed their trust....sometimes you find yourself in these situations and they become defining moments good or bad it was a defining moment for her. she somewhat redeemed herself...but what else can you expect in that situation... True but her mission was to see if Earth's forces could defend themselves without help. She conducted a through report, gained real true friendships with the league and turned it in. She thought they were doing a shield not destruction of the world. She was for the shield as was the league and that was the case for both till they found out the true agenda wasn't to shield the planet.
|
|
|
Post by StrykerX2K on Jun 3, 2004 22:09:59 GMT -5
...but you know we love her, too! She is a great character! All of them are great which makes the team gel so well...at least until Starcrossed...
|
|