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Post by s.marlinfan on Aug 27, 2006 23:29:43 GMT -5
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Post by Destro on Aug 28, 2006 1:44:01 GMT -5
So, Jazz is gonna be a pontiac solstice..what's the big deal?
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Post by Gunman_sr5 on Aug 28, 2006 12:33:27 GMT -5
I have mentioned that the movie has full support from GM. Sot his is no suprise.
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Post by CkRtech on Aug 28, 2006 18:16:42 GMT -5
My big problem with Jazz is that he is reportedly shorter than Bumblebee.
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Post by Destro on Aug 29, 2006 13:27:39 GMT -5
My big problem with Jazz is that he is reportedly shorter than Bumblebee. While I can see your point, and in a way I agree and would rather have jazz bigger than bumblebee, I feel like I should again say that this isn't g1.
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Post by CkRtech on Aug 30, 2006 1:03:26 GMT -5
Actually....It is. Albeit a twisted and ugly G1 - but still G1. Thus - the reason so many fans are upset.
And if it isn't supposed to be, they need to start from scratch and not borrow names and characters from the series.
Bumblebee is shorter than Jazz. It's the way it is supposed to be.
G1. Period. Paragraph. End of story.
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Post by Destro on Aug 30, 2006 19:09:33 GMT -5
You're really reaching for something there ck..not sure why, but you're stretching pretty good..
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Post by Jo'Roq on Aug 30, 2006 19:14:43 GMT -5
How is it not G1, then, Destro?
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Post by Gunman_sr5 on Aug 30, 2006 19:17:00 GMT -5
Think of it as G1 with a twist in another dimension.
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Post by Destro on Aug 30, 2006 19:19:54 GMT -5
ck states that the names are the same; all tf lines and toons have used those names and they're not g1. Say it w/ me: "name recognition."
Jazz is now (supposedly) smaller than bumblebee, that's not g1.
The tf's arrive present day. Not g1.
Do I have to mention that many don't look anything like their g1 counterparts?
Also, we know scarce little of the story and have seen no clips besides a half-second of bb in alt mode. I'm assuming here, but I doubt it's going to be much like g1 (murphy even stated that megatron doesn't show up til late in the movie; again, not g1).
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Post by CkRtech on Aug 30, 2006 19:55:41 GMT -5
You're really reaching for something there ck..not sure why, but you're stretching pretty good.. Forgive me. I was under the impression that you actually watched the original cartoon. Did you read my character descriptions? I quote Jo' - "How is it not G1, then, Destro?" If I stuck a sandwich in front of you and kept saying, "this is not a sandwich," would you eventually think it is not a sandwich? I guess so, because I think you are having to work harder to say this is not G1 that I am to say that it is G1. There are way too many "coincidences" - therefore creating a pattern - to say this movie is not G1. It's the reason people are getting so upset about the movie. They are getting as close as they can to G1 and then changing details - details for which changes do not make sense. They are trying way too hard to please different crowds here. They should have drawn more of a solid line before things got started. Either: 1: Go with the fan community and make it a virtually fan-based movie. or 2: Make an announcement of a movie, tell the public it will be the film company's own interpretation of the Transformers, and have zero interaction between the fans during the film-making process. They tried to walk the tightrope between those two options & it has come back to bite them.
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Post by s.marlinfan on Aug 30, 2006 21:13:32 GMT -5
They tried to walk the tightrope between those two options & it has come back to bite them. I totally agree CK. I do have to give Mr. Bay and co. one thing, is that they have sucsessfuly pissed off the entire fan base in one way or another. There are those that are happy with everything. Then there are those who hate it. It has seemed to almost cause a civil war within the fandom. It seems to me that they have highjacked the TF brand that is tried and true for 20+ years, and they are going to do what they want with it. US G1ers are the ones who built this franchise. Now they are taking it over and taking it to the bank. They are throwing us a bone every now and then hoping to make us happy and shut up to go along with it. But then they are running right back to the Hollywood executive types and giving them twice as much sayso. I do hope this will turn around and prove me wrong. If it does I will be the first to admit I was wrong. But right now I'm hold true to my core and what's in my heart about TFs. Not some Hollywood hot shot's interpertation. Because they are in it for the $$$ and not the fandom. That's what it all boils down to. So this is a twised G1ish rip off in my book. I will state that I'm not ripping anyone here, I'm just stating my views. If someone is happy with the direction of this film that is fine. But that's the beauty of what we can do here at ES is have a debate and it not turn into a flame war.
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Post by Destro on Aug 30, 2006 23:43:19 GMT -5
Forgive me. I was under the impression that you actually watched the original cartoon. Sure have, and that's why, when I see something that isn't that cartoon, I can say w/ confidence that it isn't. I disagree; did you read my post? Like what, besides the names which have been used in every toon since g1? I think we've been through why this isn't a good idea.. Of course it's going to be their interpretation of the movie! Who else's would it be? Movies aren't made in a vacuum.
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Post by Jo'Roq on Aug 30, 2006 23:47:59 GMT -5
ck states that the names are the same; all tf lines and toons have used those names and they're not g1. Say it w/ me: "name recognition." Except those names are recognized from G1. Ah, but in G1 they awoke in 1984. "Present day" for the original airings. Truck Optimus, yellow Bumblebee with little horns on his bot head, fighter jet Starscream, scorpion Scorponok ... there's quite a bit of resemblance. That's the element I'm pinning my hopes on. I keeping seeing a lot of the same reactions in TF fans that X-Men comic die-hards have over the X-movies: characters look different, not the same origin story, not the comic story ..... I'm very open to an alternate story-telling, as long as it stay true to the basic concepts that founded TFs in the first place (primarily the concept of robots in disguise).
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Post by Destro on Aug 31, 2006 0:25:29 GMT -5
ck states that the names are the same; all tf lines and toons have used those names and they're not g1. Say it w/ me: "name recognition." Except those names are recognized from G1. They've been used for every series, and I doubt hasbro would let them change the names even if they wanted to, nor would it make any sense to do so. Yea, I can see that. However, in this movie they come down from the sky and there's a government cover-up, so there's more to it than that, not to mention making a lot more sense. In Energon, prime was a truck, ss was a jet and scorponok was a scorpion. Is Energon g1 too? Fans from g1 to cybertron know these characters as having those alt modes; it wouldn't make sense to change them. That's why I think they had more license w/ megatron bc he's had more alt modes than the others. Also, the robot modes don't look like g1 at all (admittedly some head sculpts do, but some, like prime, have had very similar head sculpts since g1 and, again, it wouldn't make sense to change that). Hopefully this movie won't throw the "robots in disguise" idea out the window in 5 minutes like in every other tf series..
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Post by CkRtech on Aug 31, 2006 1:11:30 GMT -5
The reason I ask if you read my post is because I usually think you don't read any of my posts - or - you choose to ignore my points because....drum roll......you're losing the argument! Ta daaaaaa! Seriously man. The items in question: Jazz and Bumblebee The question: Do the Transformer characters Jazz and Bumblebee - as they are meant to be represented in the upcoming movie - parallel those same characters created in the original cartoon referred to as "Generation 1?" My answer: Yes. My facts to back up my answer: Names: G1: Jazz and Bumblebee Movie: Jazz and Bumblebee Conclusion: There is a reason for comparing these two G1 Transformers to those in the movie. Character personality: G1 Jazz: Note the line in the tec spec: "Creates dazzling sound, disorienting sound, and light shows." Cartoon G1 Jazz: Loved rock and roll. Showed off his speakers quite a bit. You could even say he "talked with style." Scatman Crothers delivered. Movie Jazz: Rock n' roll style character. Conclusion: Same name. Same character. G1 Bumblebee: Note the line in the tec spec: "Small, eager, and brave." Cartoon G1 Bumblebee: He was definitely small. Just a bit taller than Spike even. He was a volkswagon bug in the show, and that is a pretty darn small car. He was brave. He was eager. He was small. Not all of the cartoon characters matched their tech specs, but these two seem to hold true. Movie Bumblebee: "Underdog type character. The scout. Smallest of the gang. (Spike mentioned)" Conclusion: Same name. Same character. Based on this evidence, I conclude that these two characters are based off of Generation 1. Therefore - I still hold the claim that they screwed up yet again because Jazz is shorter than Bumblebee. AND - If all of THAT isn't enough, check the description again: "Underdog type character. The scout. Smallest of the gang. (Spike mentioned)" Smallest of the gangSmallest. Smallest?! Somebody get these people a dictionary.
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Post by Destro on Aug 31, 2006 2:14:32 GMT -5
I don't read your posts? You don't address much of anything I say, you simply change the question! I guess it's easier that way, since I'm losing the argument anyway and all.. But one would think that since you're changing the question you must be back pedaling.. Also notice that bb doesn't seem to be the smallest; jazz is. Furthermore, these two characters haven't been around since g1. What else would you expect bay and co to do w/ them? Throw the g1ers a bone here and there might've been their thought process. So..two characters resemble their g1 counterparts makes this movie g1? Riiiight.
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Post by CkRtech on Aug 31, 2006 18:30:22 GMT -5
Umm - there's a whole lot more to this movie that makes it G1 than just these two characters. I felt like that was inferred through my previous posts, but apparently most of my posts come across as a Level 10 Where's Waldo book or something.
Does the entire movie have to be the Generation one cartoon - verbatim - in order to be considered Generation 1?
There are so many other things present to backup my claim. Why are you so interested in twisting (more like...ignoring) the facts to say this movie is not Generation 1? What else would it be based off of?
We can talk about all the other things in the movie that make it like Generation 1 if you want too, however the primary topic of this thread (the last time I read it) was Jazz. Then I immediately compared him to Bumblebee & expressed disappointment that Jazz was shorter than Bumblebee since it did not make sense considering they were basically G1 and this movie is an adaptation of G1.
So first of all, I need you to acknowledge that Jazz and Bumblebee are movie incarnations of their cartoon characters.
Second - we will address the "changed question" :
If a coincidence is two events/traits/etc that appear to have been arranged but are accidental...and several coincidences are a pattern, prove to me how this movie is not a current day adaptation of Generation 1.
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Post by metafeather on Aug 31, 2006 19:22:26 GMT -5
Ok I am Siding with Destro all the way. This movie is as much G1 as beast wars is. Destro saying this is commenting on the original statment. He is saying that the size does not have to be the same as G1 because it isnt G1. how much simplier can it be.
And on it not being G1, Every Transformers cartoon since G1 has had G1 resembalnces in it, lots of em. This movie is just another new continuality, not G1. Names are the same, and they are giant robots on earth, thats pretty much the only G1 similarities(gah typy no good).
In no way am i meaning to flame, But Ck you are just running in circles with your argument. Destro is answering the same question over and over again with a good answer.
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Post by Jo'Roq on Aug 31, 2006 20:18:38 GMT -5
They've been used for every series, and I doubt hasbro would let them change the names even if they wanted to, nor would it make any sense to do so. Just because the names have been reused does not mean that they aren't still G1 names. The names were reused because they were still licensed to Hasbro and had the recognition factor from the first reuse to get the original fans attention. They could have always come up with new names at any time. The names have always been associated with G1, and always will be. All of which has nothing to do with "present day". Yes, the story is being updated, and I agree that many of the new aspects make the story more realistic, but the story still fits into the flavor and theme used for G1. The comparison is a stylistic and creative comparison, not a copy-and-clone comparison. This is the same as the name usage - because it all traces back to G1. That was a purely marketing decision, based on social/politial uproar and changing toy regulations (specifically toy gun regulations). That is why Megatron never had a consistant form - because they couldn't do a true homage to the original form. Again, as with the names. Carried forward due to G1 recognition. The expectations for the same heads and other physically similarities comes somewhat from uber-fanboy demand ("that's not what Prime likes like!"), but simply because Hasbro/Takara decided to create the similar designs in the second, third, and onward iterations for the emotional connection to a familiar appearance. While G1 wasn't consistent, but generally held up the disguise motif until the movie. Beast Wars season 1 held it up completely, and made a plot point with changing away from it. RID wasn't perfect, but did keep reasonable vehicle alt modes to support the "we've been hiding here for years" plot point. A/E/C was the only Western-aired series that lost the believable disguise aspect from the start.
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